Rafa had couple of successful years at McKinsey, then a few more at a FinTech - but knew there was more for her career. Ultimately, she decided it was the right time to apply for business school.
Listen to this episode to hear about her journey leading up to the decision, and much more.
- The unexpected reason Rafa left McKinsey
- How she knew it was the right time for an MBA
- Tips to stand out in business school applications
- Keys to understanding your unique story
- Where Rafa ultimately decided to go
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Management Consulted Links
- Rafa loves advising business school hopefuls on applications/essays and interviews
- Connect with Rafa on LinkedIn
Sponsor Links
- More info on Palm Tree careers
Transcription: When Is the Right Time to Pursue Business School?
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I'm Jenny Rae Le Roux. I'm here today with Rafa who is back on Strategy Simplified after an earlier episode. We're now going to talk a little bit about her career journey and her most recent decision which was whether or not to go to business school and where.
Rafa, welcome back to Strategy Simplified, we're glad to have you.
Rafa LellisÂ
Hey Jenny, thank you for having you back here. I'm really grateful about talking to you again.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Well, first of all, for everyone who didn't get a chance to listen to the first episode, can you just share the overview of your career journey? And the key steps that led you to the fall the decision to ultimately apply to business school? And then we'll pause it there for a second.
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, sure, of course. So I'm Rafaella, you can call me Rafa. I'm from a very, it's a very small city in the countryside of Brazil. But I live in Sao Paulo for almost 10 years right now, I pursued a bachelor in Law at University of Sao Paolo.
But during high school, I realized that my passion actually lies at the intersection of business and technology. And that led me to a four year path at McKinsey. So I joined McKinsey as a summer business analyst in the middle of university for three months, and I stayed up to senior business analyst.
There I developed foundational business skills in addition to the strategy part, and the technical part of Excel, corporate finance, and all of that. But, in addition to consulting, I've had the privilege of being at the forefront of three early stage ventures, having experienced both failure and success. And currently, I'm head of strategic projects at Barte. Barte is a fast growing FinTech here in Latin America.
But I always knew that my passion was more on the tech side of business than on traditional business and perhaps consulting long term career. So that drew me to startups. And my ultimate aspiration is to build a business that promotes financial inclusion in Brazil. And we can talk more about that later. But that's why I was looking for the MBA in the US as an opportunity to become a more prepared leader and create a global network.
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MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I love it. So first of all, let's go back to something that you said but didn't say, which is that you left McKinsey after four years to do something else. So what was your decision like to leave McKinsey? And then how did that ultimately tie into your later decision to apply to business school?
Rafa LellisÂ
Yes, sure. So that was one of the first decisions that I made because I was in McKinsey for almost four years. And I was almost at thr time, when you receive the sponsorship to go pursue your MBA, like, you do a what we call a third year out, that's a second program, that you can work somewhere else, and then you go for your MBA program.
And the good part about that is that they sponsor your MBA, so they pay for your tuition at one of those schools.
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MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
And that was generous, yeah, absolutely.
Rafa LellisÂ
That was a huge deal for me, because I come from a very simple family. So I knew I couldn't afford with my own things to go for program like that, in the US. So I love that that part of the offer for from McKinsey and from top consulting firms. And besides that, I really love working with projects. So being able to change things every three months.
However, I felt that I wasn't able to get more focused on something that I loved there was more the tech aspects. So I started doing there some analytical projects called advanced analytics and McKinsey related to machine learning in this was like, three years ago, so we will do machine learning models in implementing clients to help solve business problems.
And I loved that but as a business analyst I was not able to get specialize it or to focus on those types of projects, I would need to do different types of projects and industries. And I already knew that I wanted to work at startups, I like the environment of like, very fast pace. And you were actually, you're building things. And every time you were handling a different problem.
So I wanted that, and I got the opportunity to be part of the founding team of a startup. And that's the decision that I made of leaving to be part of the founding team of something that I believed in. And I would have much more autonomy and a different level of experience. And knowing that I wanted to pursue the MBA, I thought that would be beneficial as well, like another story to tell a different story to tell, there was more aligned to, to the path that I want to pursue in the future.
So I thought that that was helpful for me, like I build my foundational business base with consulting, which was amazing for me coming from law school. But I felt that in order for me to tell my story and what I wanted to do in the future, I needed to meet to make the leap of faith. And I already started on the on this startup work,
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I love it well, I know, You've mentioned a couple of times, like you knew that you wanted to get this MBA and have this global experience and have a global network and, and really, you know, shaped the way that you think, but how did you know when the right time was? So that's a really tricky question for a lot of people to answer.
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, I think when I was in consulting, that was the easy part, because everyone follows the same process. So you know that you do two or three years of consulting, and then you will apply for the MBA, and you'll do some kind of work before you go for the MBA.
So there was not a lot of questions in terms of when there, but once I left McKinsey, then he started the problem, like, when is the right time for me to go. I haven't founded my own startup so far. That's something I plan to do in the future. But for now, what I've done is be an early and very important member of those early stage startups. And that's what I do at Barte.
What I have done on the last one year and a half, but that allows me to, if I decide that it's best for me, I can leave because it's not my startup. Yeah. So I can make the decision. So that was good for me. And I thought that it was a good time. Right now I have five years of professional experience, almost five years of professional experience. And I feel like I'm in the right point between having a good background of experience.
That is enough for me to connect with other people and to share what I've learned, but I'm not so in my career, or I have not started a company yet that would then allow me to make the decision for two years. Because after all, you were thinking out like one or two years and focusing on that program. So for me that was the rationale.
But I would say that, in general, people should understand like, what are they trying to achieve with the MBA, for example, whether it's pivoting into a new industry, or it's just advancing in your career in the place that you are. And that will be very important for deciding you're to,e. If it's like faster, or maybe waiting a little bit more.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I love that. Well, a common question that we get, let's talk about some more specific MBA consideration. Now a common question we get is which MBA program gives me the best chance to pivot?
Often for us, that's into consulting, but for others, it's either out of consulting, or into potentially consulting but maybe with some other options? How much of a factor was the decision about pivoting for you in your choice of where to apply?
And also, like, what would you recommend? Was it just like we I know that I want X, Y, and Z factors of the MBA to give me the most options? Or was it something that was a little bit more focused? Just talk us through your framework?
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, sure. So that was definitely one of the factors that I considered in my decision. What I did, and I know that a lot of people do this, or they do in a different way. But I basically have a spreadsheet, where I listed, I don't know, 10 MBA programs that I had in my mind. And I listed all of the criteria that were important for me. And I attributed like, points for each of the criteria.
And then, as I studied about the schools, and as I talked to people from the schools, I was able to populate this spreadsheet with information. And that was a good, I don't know, straightforward way for me to see and visualize which schools were stronger in each part. So that's what I did, in general to have a framework to understand what would make more sense.
And in my list, this was one of the one of the important criteria so for me, I'm very interested in finance and tech. Right now I work in FinTech. So I really like both industries and I like the financial services. So although I'm not pivoting, I wanted to make sure that I choose an MBA program that would help me get farther that industry, especially in Latin America, because I want to come back and focus here. So that was important for me.
I see a lot of friends that consider the same things for different industries, for example, I'm not changing industry, but I have friends that are from consulting, and they want to go into media, for example, that is a very big change, or people that are from finance. And want to go into tech, so when you are changing, I think is even more important, because you don't only want to make sure you are able to continue and succeed.
But you want to make sure that the school helps you get your foot in the door. And sometimes that is difficult depending on where you're coming from. So definitely an important thing. And for me, what I would suggest, and what I did is, all the schools publish, like their recruiting data, basically, where they are placing more candidates in terms of industries and functions.
I studied that like extensively, I download it all. And they read and I tried to understand the nuances and the difference between the programs that I was interested and there, you can see some difference, for example, some schools, the top industry that they place, people with consulting, some schools, the top industries finance, or the top industry is tech.
So there's a difference that for me was really important. Actually, for people that weren't consulting all schools place a lot of people in consulting, which is great, but for our ordering the other industries that that is very, that can be different. So that is the first thing. The other thing that I did is understand the alumni network of each school.
I could go into LinkedIn and find the companies that I'm interested in in that industry. And check if the where the alumni are mostly from Is it from a Chicago Booth, is it from Harvard or some other school. And finally, I will take a look at the program in terms of the academics and resources, like the classes and certificates they offer that will also give you an idea of how focused they are or they are not in some topic,
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Well, we haven't even talked about where you've applied. And we're not yet going to talk about where you're going. But I understand that you were accepted into a bunch of the world's top business schools. Can you just share the list of a few of those schools that you were accepted into?
And really specifically two pro tips that you used, either that somebody told you, or that you incorporated to tell your story that helps you stand out in this really competitive application processes?
Rafa LellisÂ
sure. So I went to to apply for programs in the US and for the top programs in the US that was really important for me. And then I had a bunch of different criteria in terms of industry location, the flexibility of the program.
And I ended up being approved for Kellogg, Chicago Booth, Stanford and Harvard. Starting, I was really focused on Stanford mainly because of entrepreneurship and technology. And that was also one of the reasons why I left McKinsey I felt that for me to differentiate myself from the consultant pool, I would have more chance going through startups and already telling my story in the way that I wanted to tell than if I stayed at consulting, for example, so I was approved funding goes for schools.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I remember sponsoring a lunch in Atlanta for I think it was Harvard Business School, maybe it was a few different business schools. And a number of the Associate Consultants went there. And I thought, you know, we're in a pretty cool place, they're probably going to want us just because we're at Bain and they were very quick to say look, just because you went to Yale and Bain doesn't mean enough to us like it has to be you have to have the X factor that special something so I love that you knew that.
And I was shocked when I found that I thought how much better could it get them? Yes. But they said no, no, you have to be this this and something else. I thought wow. Okay, this is this is a new ballgame. But yeah, so what were your two pro tips?
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, I would say that one thing that is very basic, because everyone talks about, but it really makes a difference is the GMAT. So or the tests that you choose to take. But start soon with that, because you need to get, depending on the school that you choose, you need to get at a very competitive score. And that takes time, depending of like your background, or how easy you work with math, for example.
So I would definitely say focus on that, because it will be important, even when you have a great story behind it. And the second, I would say, as soon as you can understand your story, like, what are your main achievements, the things that you were proud of the things that make you you. And that is not easy. At least it wasn't easy for me.
Like it took a lot of reflection hours of reflection, talking to people, family members, friends, to understand, like, what are my core values and how I showed those core values during my story. So I think I only did that once I was finished with the GMAT. And I got a not a lot of time left after that. So I would say start at least thinking about that as soon as you can, and try to write down the things that you were thinking.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I love it. And then I think the real final question that I have for you before we move on to some of the fun questions. Well, actually, this is the final question, then we'll talk about how you chose where you're gonna go.
But the final question for the audience is just how can someone who's listening a prospective MBA, you know, work with you as a coach or a counselor to put their best foot forward in both applications and interviews? How do you feel you can help unlock stories for other people after going through the experience on your own?
Rafa LellisÂ
Sure. So I, I've had the pleasure to work with Management Consulted for the last two years helping candidates that are applying to consulting. And I always did that, like start by understanding the candidates goals and where they are right now. And then you can put together a plan. And I would say that for the MBA, it's a long term game, like it takes a year, sometimes a year and a half for you to get prepared.
And it's a lot of strategy involved. So I would just love to do the same understand the experience help put together a plan for the applications, how to review the essays and actually preparing and doing mock interviews was very helpful for me to feel prepared. So that would be something that I would love to do with candidates as well.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Rafa, before I ask you the last question, which is where you decided to go, and why do you have any funny stories from your campus visits, anything that stood out that really was insightful for you as you're going through the process of looking at the schools?
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, sure. So I'm from Brazil, we have a pretty warm weather here. And it was my first time outside of Brazil, I was going to the US and I started in Boston, I was visiting HBS. First, it was kind of rainy, really cold. The landscape was not great during that period. So I where I were like some coats, etc. And when I got down to Stanford that I was visiting as well, like, on the next day, it was really sunny, and they have these fountains and you had like students dressing in bathing suits and going to the fountains and having all of that experience in the warm weather.
So Stanford kind of felt like a resort. funny to see the difference in terms of weather and how it HBS was saying that every time it happens like that, so you have a very rainy weather in Boston, and a great weather in Palo Alto.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Everything that's so funny. Well, great. Let's let's finish. Before we move to the fun, personal questions with Where did you decide to go and why?
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, that was a very difficult decision. I started everything, thinking about Stanford. And in the middle of the process, I connected very well with Chicago Booth in terms of the data side and how analytical they are.
But even going to a resort at Stanford, Harvard was kind of magical for me, I don't know, something changed when I was there. And I starting the class and got the opportunity to see all of those different people from several countries and understanding all the impact of that. It just connected more with me and I decided to go to Harvard.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Amazing. Well, we're excited to continue to partner with you while you're at HBS and we're cheering you on so keep us posted I know that listeners of Strategy Simplified would love to know what you end up doing. So now if your game let's move on to some personal questions.
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, let's do it.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Okay, first one in an alternate universe, you have to choose a completely different career. You're not allowed to be a consultant, you can't go into FinTech, what would your other career be?
Rafa LellisÂ
I would say that is actually something that I would have done. When I was younger, if I wasn't so focused on like business and career that was art history. I really like to understand like, how history and art is connected in terms of like, cinema, but even like old paintings, so I like to read about that and watch documentaries. So I will probably do something like that when I'm, I don't know, 50 or 60. So it would be that.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
I love it. What is an item from your bucket list that you haven't checked off yet? And why is it on there?
Rafa LellisÂ
Yeah, so basically, my mom is my all times inspiration, and the reason of everything that I'm able to achieve, so I really want to take her to Portugal, because it's one of her dreams to go there, especially a city called Fatima. That is very, very big city for like Catholics. So I just want you to take her there and hope to do that some
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Gorgeous. And then last question, what is the most unique food you've ever tried? I tried some interesting things in Brazil. So I'm curious if it's a Brazilian food or something else.
Rafa LellisÂ
I would say the recently, when I was in San Jose, for Stanford, I was able to taste Ethiopian food. And it was a very different experience with all of the sauces and different tastes that they have and textures of food. So it was very unique, but I'm really fond of Lebanese food. So we have a lot of Lebanese food here in Brazil, and I love it.
MC: Jenny Rae Le RouxÂ
Amazing, stunning. Well, thank you so much Rafa, for your insights for your stories, and congratulations on your entry into so many different schools. And we know that you have a lot ahead of you, excited to stay in touch. And thank you for offering your coaching and encouragement to the listeners of strategy simplified, really great to have you on today.
Rafa LellisÂ
Definitely, thank you for having me here again.