There are major challenges for international students recruiting into consulting in the U.S. But Thomas Poloniato beat the odds, landing at McKinsey and working his way up to Engagement Manager.
At McKinsey, Thomas focused on ESG issues for clients and also stood up an ESG-focused "internal start-up" at the firm. He interviewed 150+ candidates and knows exactly what McKinsey looks for.
Now, he's a Management Consulted case coach. Listen to learn:
- Important mindset shifts to give yourself an edge
- How to go all-in on networking
- Why live casing beats videos/books every day
- How many cases Thomas practiced to land his interview
- The 2 traits that set top candidates apart
- Thomas' approach to case coaching
Coaching with Thomas
- See Thomas'Â coaching calendar
- Read more about Thomas
Purchase Coaching
- Need case interview help? Purchase 1, 4, or 8 hours of MBB coaching here
- Join the Black Belt case prep program to become a confident caser (8 hours 1:1 coaching, resume edits, and more)
Partner Links
- More info on Palm Tree careers
Transcription:
Can you give me about a 60 second introduction of you pre McKinsey? Because side note, Thomas worked at McKinsey and now he's with us, which is great. But yeah, tell us a little bit about you pre McKinsey.
Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the show and so good to speak with you today. So I go by Thomas, I'm originally from France, but I moved to the United States to study at UC Berkeley when I was 20. And that's where I actually got into consulting and got very passionate specifically about sustainability and how do we use the private sector and consulting to work on climate solutions and sustainability.
So I finished my studies at Berkeley and then it was time to find a job. And so just like many people were listening to the podcast, I got interested in consulting and worked my way to find a job in consulting. It wasn't easy and very happy to share back my learnings with the audience today.
Oh, that's great. Wonderful. Thanks so much for adding in that color.
So can you tell me a little bit about what your initial recruitment process looked like from the initial stages of when you decided you were interested in consulting to when you got your offer?
Yes, absolutely. So because I'm originally from France, I was an international student and for those who might not know, as an international student, you cannot work for any organization once you graduate. So you cannot work for a start-up, obviously you cannot work for the public sector.
And really the companies that are left, I usually take companies, but I studied economics, so I didn't have the coding background. It can also be investment banking, but the lifestyle scared me off. And then you have consulting.
And I got really drawn to consulting because you have the ability to work on a lot of different topics. And I'm a very curious person. I love to learn about different things about the world and the way our economy and business world works.
So consulting was a great way for that. And as a student, I joined a consulting club, which taught me more about how the industry is organized, how a consulting project works, how you work with clients and so on. So that was really good moving into the recruiting process because I had a bit of an idea of what I was getting into.
And then the recruitment process itself was… I'm not gonna lie, it was definitely challenging. I think September of my senior year of college was probably the most stressful month of my life because as an international student, you also have challenges that some others might not have.
You do have to find a job, otherwise you have to lead the country. But I really approached the situation like a game almost, where I had my run map, I had the end goal, and then it was just about filling the pieces in the puzzle to get to my end goal. And in retrospect, I had a lot of fun actually, and I'm really happy to now share my learnings with people I coach with you guys.
Wonderful. Thanks so much. Now, what office did you land your offer at?
Yes, I was studying in California, but actually I wanted to see something else in the US. So I asked to join the Denver office, because in my opinion, it was right in the middle of the country, I had never lived in the mountains, and it was a great way to travel in the country and work on different projects in different cities. So I joined the Denver office for about two years as a business analyst, and then once I became manager, I moved back to San Francisco, and that's where I finished my time at McKinsey until 2023.
All right. I'm so excited to have heard this story because I speak with international candidates all of the time who are trying to break into the US market as a consultant, and they feel very discouraged. So can you extract one to two insights for them specifically, with people who have a similar background, trying to accomplish the same mission?
And what can they do to stand out and successfully make it through the application and interview process with MBB?
Yes. I think that's a great question because I had a lot of challenges and I'm really passionate, truly, about helping international students. So in my 101 sessions, I share a lot more with international students.
But I think two things that really international students should keep in mind. The first one is that Americans are very good at networking and marketing themselves. And I don't know how it is in other countries, but in France, marketing yourself doesn't come naturally.
So I had to learn that skill, and I had to really sell myself, go to career fair and sell why I think I should be, I would be a great candidate for that specific position. So networking and really going all in on marketing yourself, because you are great and because that's how the market looks. That's how the market works.
That's how American candidates will act throughout the recruiting process, and you have to match them where they are strong at. So that's the first one. The second one is, prep as much as possible.
It's important to look at videos and read cases and so on, but nothing will ever replace live casing. So I had to find other students to prep with, students within my consulting club, students I was studying with, and also MBA students who had worked in consulting in the past. And I did do a little, a few sessions with expert coaches, and that helped a lot.
But I think I had at least 60 live cases under my belt until I got to the first round. And it was key because it gave me the confidence that I was actually going to succeed because I knew what I was getting into. And the fun fact there is that as a junior at Berkeley, I got invited to an interview for an internship in consulting.
And it was an application that I had filled out a few months earlier. I forgot about it, got an e-mail, next week you are getting interviewed. I don't have any clue what the case interview was.
I showed up and obviously I didn't get the offer. But that experience was great because it showed me that it's like a sport, right? It's like a competition.
You practice before you get to the competition. And then because you have practiced, you have the confidence that you're going to do great on the day.
That's a really helpful insight. I see a lot of candidates who are waiting to prep until they get the interview invite and sometimes they really only do get one week notice. And we try our best to help them out.
But if they are starting at zero, the best we can do most of the time is just help them not miss out on future opportunities with that company. And so what we want to make sure that candidates know is that you do need to start prepping for this ahead of time and have the confidence that you're going to land the interview and get ready for it. I think that will all add up to be, lead you in the right direction to be successful.
All right. So you were very involved in the interview process at McKinsey. Can you tell me a couple of traits that your top candidates displayed?
Yes, absolutely, and before I get there, a little bit of context. I had a bit of a special position at McKinsey where I helped build an internal startup that was focused on environmental, social and governance. And so at the beginning, we were just a team of two, and in slightly over a year, we built a team of 25, and we had to hire those people.
Some of them were already employees of McKinsey, but I had to hire about 15 consultants. And so that experience is a bit different than the average manager or associate partner would get asked to head on one specific candidate, case the person, and then go on to their regular job life. There, I had to work alongside HR and recruiting to screen a resume, case the people, and then do the actual hiring decision.
And so I got to see what it looks like to hire someone at McKinsey on the other side of the table. And because I did that, I interviewed about a hundred, slightly over a hundred candidates in that position. And some patterns got really clear to me.
I think the two main ones were the first one, people who were successful were overly prepared. There is, it's like night and day. You could see immediately if someone didn't know how a case works, and if someone had the codes.
And if the person has the codes, it doesn't mean that they are smarter than the other person, but it means that they were willing to put in the work to land the job. And it tells you a lot about the work ethic of a candidate. And that is a trait that is a great first impression.
And usually if they have prepared a lot, it means that they got good at it. And if they got good at it, usually they would land an offer. So that's the first one.
The second one might be a bit less intuitive, but they were having fun. They were having fun with the case, and they were having fun during the interview. And to everyone listening out there who is thinking about recruiting for consulting and is going through the case interview process, I really encourage you to see it as a learning opportunity.
Because you are going to learn about different industries. You are going to learn skills that whether you learn the job or not, will be relevant in your career. Thinking about how to structure a case will help you in your consulting career and other careers.
And so the people were very good at those interviews and that we hired, you knew they had done dozens of cases. And because they had done so many, they were having fun, and they were genuinely intellectually curious about the case that I was presenting to them.
That is an incredibly helpful context. And it's very true, we've seen that across industry, that when our candidates are both very well prepared and they enjoy it, they typically get called back for a second interview as well as the offer. It's kind of like dating, right?
You can know how to ask all the questions and answer all the questions. But if you're not having fun, you're not going to get a second date. So we definitely want that for everyone.
All right. So can you tell me a misconception about consulting that you have noticed and something that you wish that our candidates knew?
Yes, absolutely. I think the main one for me is that you don't actually need a business background and that the most successful people in consulting usually do not come from a business background. You need a lot of soft skills to succeed in consulting, especially at later stages in your career.
And you don't need to know how a P&L is structural to help a client, because those are the things you are going to learn on the job. And if there's one thing that people love in consulting, and especially at McKinsey, is coaching others and help others succeed. And so if you come in from another background, I've had great colleagues that were the best consultants I've ever seen, were English majors, because they knew how to write, they knew how to tell a story, and they knew how to basically present in front of clients.
And all the business acumen, you learn it on the job. So if you're not doing, you know, if you're not a business major and undergrad, if you don't have an MBA, it doesn't mean that consulting is not for you. For me, consulting is a great way to learn about the world, because you are going to get on a different project on a very regular basis, and you're going to learn great things about things that you didn't know anything about.
So consulting is not only for business people.
In helping candidates recruit for some of the top firms in the world, what is the process that you run them through?
Yes, I think that process will look very different if the person has one hour with us or eight hours. If they have one hour, I really target what their largest weakness looks like, so that they get above the bar before their interview. If they have, you know, a full black belt program with a full eight hour, I start redoing a diagnostic.
There is three main elements that are important in a consulting case, right? It's going to be the framework, which is the quantitative thinking, it's going to be the math, and it's going to be the creative thinking. And those three elements, I assess them in a first diagnostic case.
And then I understand where the candidate is on those three different dimensions. And after the first call, I give them homework, the things that they need to work on until our second call. And in the second call, we do another case, usually a tiny bit harder than the first one.
And we work like that, just brick by brick. First, we focus on the weaknesses, because we want to meet the bar across the bones. And then we focus on the strength.
We want to bring the strength from good to great. And that's how we progress. And that, those eight hours are pretty different if the person is interviewing specifically for McKinsey, because the behavioral part of the interview, the personal experience interview at McKinsey, looks very different.
And I like to dedicate a solid one to two hours specifically to that part of the interview, because you have to be prepared for the PEI part of the interview.
Okay, can you talk a little bit more about that part of the interview and potentially anything else that candidates need to prioritize as they're getting ready for that process?
Yeah, absolutely. And once again, that is extremely specific to McKinsey. So if you have enough, if you have an interview with McKinsey, or if you want to work for McKinsey, you will need to go through the process.
Essentially, when we would recruit people, you look at a case and you look at what is called the personal experience interview, PEI. And the two elements are worth 50%. So I had to decline, we had to reject candidates that were incredible on the case, but didn't prepare the PEI.
And therefore, it's 50% of the interview, and they didn't pass. So for the PEI, you will look on the website of McKinsey, and they look at three or four different elements of leadership. And you want to have stories ready for two specific elements.
And the interview is not like, hey, how is it going? Tell me more about yourself. Not at all.
It's going to be about telling you about a specific moment when you were in that specific situation, and what exactly did you do. And believe me, from my experience, they go deep, and they drill down on elements you wouldn't expect. Because they are looking for specific leadership traits, and if you don't have your story already, you are not going to understand why they are asking specifically about that.
And it's pretty easy to miss a PEI, even if you've prepped for hours before that, for the case interview. So I really encourage people who have an interview with McKinsey, or want to work with McKinsey, to prep for that specific section of the interview and have their stories ready. And I'm happy to work with you to make sure that your stories will actually pass the bar.
Yeah, McKinsey is very known for their PEI. Also, other firms have behavioral interviews and fit interviews, you can call them. Either, whatever you'd like.
But you have to have your hero stories prepared, and you have to have that depth of knowledge of your own experiences. Otherwise, they're going to just think that you might have memorized a script or something. So being organic and being in the moment in the interview and being knowledgeable is incredibly important.
All right, so candidates can work with you by booking meetings with you through the link in the show notes, by the way, just for our listeners out there. Do you have any final words of wisdom that you would like to share with them as they are approaching their recruitment season?
Yes, I think two main takeaway is to keep in mind. One, this shall pass too. Like it's a difficult moment to go through, but it's worth it.
And once again, don't see just as a means to get to the end, but see it as a process that will teach you valuable skills and knowledge for your career down the line. So just don't see it as a must-do in order to land a job, but rather a journey where you will become a better version of yourself by going through a journey. The second one is prepare, prepare, prepare.
I cannot tell you how much you see it when a candidate comes to the interview, and they are overly prepared, and they know exactly what they are doing. It's not rocket science, but you cannot run a marathon if you haven't got on a lot of runs before that. It's the exact same thing.
Don't wait for the interview next week, because just like me when I was a junior in college, you will bomb the case, and it's going to be pretty embarrassing. Prepare, prepare, prepare. A couple of weeks, couple of months before the recruiting seasons, and then you will be in great shape to land the job that you want to land.
Wonderful. All right, so let's move on and hear a little bit about some fun facts about you. Can you tell me your best travel story, whether that was inside of consulting or not?
Yeah, that one is not going to be inside of consulting. Actually, last summer, my partner and I, we built prototype solar-powered bikes, and we rode those bikes from San Francisco to New York City. That was really fun.
It had never been done before. And we are doing it to advocate for clean energy and clean mobility. And it was great.
We finished just in September, a couple of weeks ago, actually, just for New York Climate Week. And it was wild. It was wild.
And you wouldn't believe it, but the problem-solving skills and the resiliency that I learned working in consulting helped us a lot throughout the project.
Oh, that's awesome. I've never heard of anybody even attempting something along those lines. So that's fun.
So you actually built the solar-powered bikes.
Yeah, well, the bikes themselves, we had a partnership, but we built the structure around it with the solar panel and the wiring and the battery. It's essentially a recumbent three-wheel e-bike that gets charged with the sun. So over your head, you have solar panel.
The solar panel charges the battery and the battery feeds the material for you to panel. And yeah, it was a first. It had never been attempted before.
And it was really hard because it was a first, so we didn't know if we could actually do it, but we succeeded and it was pretty fun.
That's amazing. Okay, that was not on my bingo card for today, but I'm really glad that you've shared about that. Very cool.
All right, last question. Can you tell me what your favorite memory was from your time at McKinsey?
Oh yeah, that one is easy. So as I told you, we built an internal startup of 25 consultants, and we are all working on environmental and social topics. So we were actually pretty close because through that selection process, you hire people who are great consultants, but also great people you want to work with.
And it was during COVID, so you didn't have a lot of in-person interaction. And then we did our yearly retreat in Madrid, Spain. So we all got together after months and months of working together, and it was the most fun ever.
So, yeah, really grateful for that team and all those great people.
That's lovely. Well, I'm so glad that you are on our team, and I'm really glad that our listeners have gotten to know you a little bit more today. And I don't know if we need to have the thumbnail of you on the recumbent bike, traveling across the US for this podcast.
Japheth, our podcast producer, will have to make that decision, but I definitely want to see pictures of that later, for sure. Thanks so much for joining us today, Thomas. And do you have any final parting thoughts or words you'd like to share, and then we can wrap it up?
Yeah, hang in there. We're here to help you throughout the journey, and it's all going to be okay, especially for, you know, my fellow international students out there. I know how stressful it can be, but everything will be okay if you're willing to put in the work.
Hmm, that's very true. Great words. All right, well, thanks again for joining us, and I hope everyone has a great day.